Before I left the Christian faith, I was reading tons of apologetics books and listening intently to J. Warner Wallace’s “Cold Case Christianity” podcast trying to save my faith. At one point, I wrote Jim an email through LinkedIn and he actually responded and was gracious enough with his time to call me and go over some of my concerns.
I thought I’d post it here so you could get a feel for some of my thoughts from a few years ago. I’ve read about 25 books about this historical Jesus and the New Testament since I wrote this, and my thoughts have changed quite a bit (I think I could make a much better argument now for my doubts about Christianity), but still, I think it’s interesting to see the thoughts that were going through my mind while I was still calling myself a Christian. Enjoy.
Hello Jim,
Thanks for answering my LinkedIn InMail the other day about OT messianic prophecy.
I’ll be honest and say that since I found your podcast last week, I’ve gotten zero work done. I’ve probably listened to 15 of your podcasts, have read a bunch of your articles on CCC and STR, and have even been reading a bunch of stuff by Ignatious and Polycarp. (luckily I’m self-employed or I’d be fired right now.)
All I can say is I’ve been on a journey from deep faith, (went to Christian high school, attended seminary, did tons of evangelism, thought i wanted to be a pastor, moved to Honduras for a 2 year long missions trip in my early 20’s, etc.) to skepticism the past 15 years and your podcast is shining a glimmer of hope for me to finally come out of this funk I’m in.
Anyway, we left off with you saying that the strongest evidence for you about Jesus being the messiah is the resurrection rather than prophecy.
I agree with this line of reasoning, and listened to your podcast about building a case with circumstantial evidence. If your case is very strong in certain areas (theism, resurrection, chain of custody, etc.) then at some point you have to accept the whole thing as true, even if one bit of evidence isn’t as strong on its own.
I guess my problem is not being 100% convinced of the resurrection. I’ve read multiple books by Josh McDowell, Lee Strobel, Habernas, Gregory Boyd, Max Davis, CS Lewis, etc. I’ve gone out of my way to try to find the truth (way more than the average person would) desperately trying to find my faith again, as my teens and early 20’s when I was on fire for God were the happiest times of my life.
I couldn’t agree more that the best starting point is the resurrection. If I’m being honest, the place I always get hung up is in the much-too-simplistic explanations that are provided for what happened to Jesus, and the idea that if none of the standard explanations is possible, then the resurrection must be the only explanation.
But here’s one possible alternative I’ve come up with for the resurrection and I’d love to hear your thoughts.
The traditional alternate explanations for what could have happened to Jesus if he didn’t rise (offered in your podcast and by McDowell and others) are far too simple.
I agree with the basic abductive truths you explained:
… that Jesus existed, died, the tomb was empty, that the disciples experienced a transformation (believed he was raised), they said they were eyewitnesses, etc.
But I believe what actually happened was more complex than the standard 4 possibilities:
1. Jesus didn’t really die on the cross
2. Disciples imagined it
3. Legend over time
4. Disciples maliciously lied about it
… or 5. Jesus rose
Instead, it was a very complex combination of a bit of each of these, except for #1.
I, like you, can’t believe in a conspiracy here. I think the disciples really did believe they saw him, or perhaps were 80% sure they did, but other factors led to their zeal to preach the good news, even unto death. Let me explain.
We know the tomb was empty and I think that’s where the story begins. In this theory, someone stole the body. This point is way too easily dismissed in all of McDowell’s and Habernas’ works citing how the guards never would have fallen asleep and would have been killed for this, etc. etc.
I agree. It’s not likely the guards fell asleep. They were probably overcome, or possibly paid… or even protected. Who knows what politics went on behind the scenes that could have made the Romans or Jewish leadership want the body? As a sidenote, if the guards were overcome, who ever said those guards weren’t killed for failing in their duties? Maybe they were. Regardless, either they were legitimately overtaken or there was some deal made, but someone (not the disciples), but possibly family, graverobbers, Jewish leadership, stole the body. The “who” is irrelevant. (yeah, i realize everyone wants to point to how the Romans or Jews would have “produced the body” if they had it, but I think that’s a weak argument. Pentecost was 43 days after Jesus’ death, so even if they did “produce a body”, how convincing would it be anyway that it was Jesus after all that time?)
When the disciples find out the tomb is empty, the reaction is different than if the average person finding an average joe’s empty tomb. Normally, you’d think graverobbers, but this is Jesus after all, and they are his disciples, who they think they saw him do miracles. Instead of dismissing it as a robbery, his missing body piques their curiosity and they wonder if this Jesus could have raised from the dead.
Perhaps some innocent exaggeration fueled the fire further. Maybe when the women return to tell the disciples he’s missing, the disciples ask the women if they saw anything unusual. Maybe one of them says something innocent like “His body was gone but I swear I could feel his presence there standing right next to me.” Subtle little statements like these could have given them even more hope, and later when retold, could easily become the basis for legends like an earthquake or angels at the tomb.
Now here’s where it gets interesting. Still with no body and no evidence for where it’s gone, a couple of them have a DREAM that they see Jesus (I agree, a group hallucination is ridiculous, but a dream is highly plausible, dreams can be very realistic, and could have just happened to a couple of them, and is especially plausible with all the excitement around the empty tomb and thinking about Jesus. It would be crazy to think they weren’t having dreams about Jesus.) So the first couple excitedly tell the others. The dream is particularly powerful and impactful given the empty tomb and the fact that another disciple had a similar dream/vision. … Then a couple more say they saw Jesus.
…And from there you have an empty tomb and say 4 or 5 disciples who have had dreams or visions of Jesus. At this point, it’s easy to imagine the others joining in. How do the others get on board? Their desire for it to be true. Their desire to also see Jesus.
They’re going to go to sleep thinking about Jesus and praying for a sign… “are you really alive Jesus? Come to me. Reveal yourself to me.” Maybe you know that when you’re meditating on something, and thinking about it all the time and wishing for it, you’re gonna dream about it.
It would also be similar to Mormons who pray for God to declare the truth of Mormonism to them. Guess what. Somehow, they all magically get the same answer, that yes, this nonsense Mormon religion is true. Why? Because they want it to be. So the disciples go to sleep thinking ‘are you really alive, Jesus?’, and they dream of him, and consider it a sign that he really is alive.
But the disciples’ vision wouldn’t be nonsense like a Mormon sign. It would all be very exciting… the empty tomb, not knowing where the body was, the others seeing him too.
Couldn’t this partially account for their excitement and zeal? But there’s more.
On top of this, I think there could be a bit of reason 4 in here. Maybe not malicious, but the perks the apostles enjoyed are vastly understated in the rebuttals for this argument. For the past few years, these former peasants haven’t had to work. They’ve been fed everywhere they’ve gone with their master. They’ve been important. They’ve been part of something fantastic. To recap, with Jesus, they had status, food, purpose, and no need for money… and now what were they to do? A continued movement would keep the train going.
It’s kind of like in Shawshank Redemption when the old guy, Brooks, gets out of prison and has no clue what to do with his life, and just wants to go back to prison, so he kills himself. It’s easy to make an argument that the disciples found comfort in the status quo of keeping this thing going. Some would argue “but now they were going to face persecution”. Yeah, well they did in the past 3 years too. They were in lots of dangerous situations with Jesus (remember all the violent crowds Jesus had to slip away from). It’s not as if this idea of persecution was entirely new to them, as some would argue. Maybe the disciples were just “institutionalized” like Brook. They were so used to their current life and the way they’d been living the past few years that they didn’t know how to live with it. It’s easy to see the benefit, even comfort (hard as it may seem to us), in continuing the Jesus movement, even facing certain persecution.
Oh, and hate to bring it up, but there was a possible monetary motivation (maybe not for all the disciples). I’ve always taken issue with the story of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. (also see the end of Acts 4 about how some would sell off their land and houses and put it at the apostles’ feet.) You’ve argued that you don’t find anywhere in the NT where the apostles could have been motivated by greed or status. I think that Acts passage is a good example.
How do you think a skeptic would read that? It sure looks like religion at its best, keeping the early believers in check with a story about how these two died because they didn’t want to give away all their possessions, and making sure everyone continues to give to the coffers.
Last, they were part of a movement that was radical, and I don’t think this could be understated. They were doing extremely “good” works, helping the poor and widows. And they were including people that usually were untouchables by the Palestinian Jews (Hellenistic Jews, women, the poor, Gentiles). This thing was radically different.
It’s like in the movie “Social Network” when Zuckerberg took the twins’ idea for their exclusive Harvard social network and took it to other schools. That’s when the idea grew from a “cool idea” to a “holy sh*t once in a lifetime idea,” as the movie quotes. The disciples knew they were part of a “holy sh*t once in a lifetime” idea.
As for status, I think you could easily argue they knew this thing would explode and that they would have amazing status. People ARE motivated by status, legacy, even to the point of death. Maybe not everyone, but some people.
As for the early miracles the apostles performed as evidence, that stuff doesn’t ever impress me. People are morons and will believe anything they see or are told. Even smart people 2,000 years later… how much more so back then.
I have a friend who went to one of these “faith healers” and is a legitimate believer, but has had back issues for a long time. So she gave it a try, went up, had oil sprinkled on her forehead, got knocked over, the whole deal. She got up dancing and called all her friends the next day and told them she was healed. But wouldn’t you know her back pain was back the next week? That’s not a miracle. I’m sorry.
I don’t know exactly how Jesus’ and the early apostles’ miracles are explained. I just know people, even smart people, are duped by supposed miracles all the time.
I don’t see how grown educated adults living in San Diego, CA in 1997 could be convinced that a UFO is waiting to pick them up on the other side of the moon when they kill themselves, but they did in the Heaven’s Gate cult. Like I said people are morons. Look at what the mormons believe. Nuff said.
Why would it be unreasonable to think that an empty tomb and a vision of Christ that they’re 50% to 80% sure of wouldn’t be enough for them to keep their movement going? At this point they’re already “all in”. They’ve left their families and jobs. After 3 years spent with Jesus, are they supposed to just return home at this point? No way. Add on the perks of status, doing a great work, being part of something special, and even possible financial gain, establishing a legacy, and I think you have a recipe for something people would be willing to die for.
I’d be interested in your thoughts.